Thursday, September 30, 2004

I just saw a fair bit of the US presidential debate, and I thought Kerry came across very well. However, since I am compelled to "get both sides" of the story, I chanced upon a blog that is pro-Bush, and saw some of what they had to say. Unfortunately, it makes me realize that the world is so complicated. Why? Because although I have my own views on matters such as the war, the other side also seems to offer their view coherently. Which then, is in the right? It is times like this that I feel quite small, because I am unable to comprehend matters deep enough to form a clear argument to support my case. So, for instance, I cannot give clear reasons why I believe Bush should not get re-elected, but I feel like I should.

Indecisive is the word that comes to mind, and that has been thrown a lot at Kerry, and I also think it is an appropriate description of me. I suppose another problem is that one cannot really tell where the spin stops - after all, a blatantly pro-Bus site is bound to have bias, but where does prejudice and opinion stop to give way to fact and reason? I don't think I have the ability to deduce such things, unfortunately.

Of course, with some matters, even one such as I can tell it's clearly prejudice. Some of the posters on this particular site see it fit to hurl ad-hominens in their typically smug manner, while turning a blind eye to the problems that Bush has (after all, he is human, no?). At the same time, behind some of their acidic quips lies some element of fact and truth, which makes things even harder.

Does the war boil down at some level to the question of whether the ends justify the means? I suppose even such a weighty question in an over-simplification of such a complex issue.

After saying all that, if we abstract away the seriousness of the matter, it is funny what different view points two people can have, and how two people can see something in a completely different light. For instance, this site remarks that Bush's comment about him being a pretty calm guy "sums it up, and people can see that", and that he did the debate very nicley. I, however, saw the whole thing in a totally different way, indeed I saw Kerry as being the calm one, and thought him to clearly be the victor! Put it down to me being misinformed, I suppose.

So, I guess part of what I'm getting at here is that the outcome is shaped greatly by your own biases and prejudices. This is exemplified by the startling thought that just occured to me - I cannot think of anything that Bush could say that would make me change my stance. Maybe it shows conviction, but where does conviction in your beliefs turn into flat out dismissal of your opponent's ideas? I can (and have) accept some of the things he says, but not the whole package as it were, no, I can't see myself doing that. Is that the way it should be?

I believe everyone makes mistakes, but unfortunately I don't think a lot of politicians want to admit that. I think it would be a lot better if they did, but I suppose that is rather quixotic of me.

Incidentally, my greatest weapons are self-disarming (thanks to Those Barren Leaves for introducing the idea to a very impressionable, younger me!) and the passive-aggressive.

6 comments:

xiaodai said...
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xiaodai said...

I was quite attracted to what Bill Clinton said in his book launch :"One day, i want the political debate in this country to focus on who is right or wrong, not who is good or bad." (or something to that effect).

Perhaps, it's better to be undecisive than to decide on doing something that is wrong and stick with it till there's no going back.

There is truth in everything, the best lies are those which contain 70% truth, i heard. I guess we form our own opinions, and when it comes to debate time, no one can hope to change my view. However my candidate did in the debate will only serve to reaffirm my view.

I remember i was qutie undecided in the Australian election coming up, but then as i learn more about their policies, i started to have a firm feeling of who i am going to vote for. If you are a relatviely open-minded person, you will listen to both sides and once you judge that you've gathered enough info, you will make a decision and you will probably stick with that decision. I guess both sides truly do believe that they are right, so perhaps the debate should focus on who is REALLY right.

Jenny said...

conviction in one's beliefs eh? it's quite scary how strong conviction is taken as correctness. wars take place..

lies containing 70% truth are the best lies, or the most effective ones? slightly inaccurate truths seem most effective as lies, but aren't all statements inaccurate to some degree?

I am 19 (lie?)
I am 19 years old (more effective lie?)
I am more than 19 years old (very effective lie?)

hmm, no jenny, you're being silly here, you're confusing inaccuracy with incorrectness. *convinced*

AKM said...

Ruffian:
So you believe that one's view should not change during a debate (as an outsider, of course - it would be worrying if the debater's view itself changed during a debate)?

Also, do you believe that either side is really right? I am not sure whether there is a universal notion of correctness..at some level, yes, but not an all-encompassing one. I think all we can work with is hindsight and deductive reasoning, but I don't know if that's enough to say that someone is right and the other person is wrong.

Miss Zhu:
I can't quite grasp your point with the 19 years old thing, sorry! By the way, what is the difference between the first and second lines? Surely the "years old" is implicit?

I don't see what you mean by "aren't all statements inaccurate to some degree?", surely if I say "there is a sheet of paper in front of me", and there is a sheet of paper in front of me, then it is not inaccurate? I'm interested to hear your refutation :)

Jenny said...

it was construed by you that there was a 'years old'. I could have been a robot named 19. that assumption was made into something concrete with the inclusion of the word 'years old' though.

I guess that's what I meant. effective lies don't seem to include incorrect information, just lead others to assume info that isn't mentioned.

a more accurate statement could be "there is a peice of paper in front of me and there is something written on it which concerns the lives and well being of your family. I have the power to save them if you ask me to but since you don't know this you won't ask me to and I can't be bothered to unless you ask me." such an inaccuracy (deliberate or no) could be important, but it might not be "I have a peice of paper in front if me and it is yellow" for instance.

all those statements were not incorrect though. which kinda begs the question, is a lie really something that is incorrect or inaccurate, or is it the consequences/intent behind the statement that makes something a lie?

AKM said...

"it was construed by you that there was a 'years old'. I could have been a robot named 19. that assumption was made into something concrete with the inclusion of the word 'years old' though"

I had an itching feeling you meant something like this. In the context of what you were saying though, the "years old" seemed implicit to me.

This talk about implicit meaning reminds me of the following. Sometimes people say things such as "Do you know what time it is?", to which a response of "Why, yes, it is [whatever time]" is dealt with "But I just asked whether you knew what time it was, I didn't ask you for the time". I am not sure if these people are serious or not, but it's all about context. Within the context of a daily conversation, "Do you know what time it is" implictly carries a request to get the time.

Perhaps such acts of pedantry are to meant to reflect how modern communicate has fractured the language, and how we are abusing it. But I don't agree with such a conclusion based on such examples.

"I guess that's what I meant. effective lies don't seem to include incorrect information, just lead others to assume info that isn't mentioned."

Indeed, leave people to cook up crazy ideas based on a limited set of facts, leaving their own personal views and biases to do the bulk of the work. I think many people point to the misinformation of others to politicians lying, although I think in a stricter sense they are only presenting half-truths.

Re the paper, quite true, so it all depends on context So then not all things are inaccurate to some degree, devoid of context.

"which kinda begs the question, is a lie really something that is incorrect or inaccurate, or is it the consequences/intent behind the statement that makes something a lie?"

An interesting point, as always :) If we say that a lie is basically something that is not true, then I think it would be the former. For instance, "I am a girl" is a flat out lie, because factually, it is incorrect.

I don't quite see how the intent alone could make something a lie. If there is some intent behind a "lie" (so here I discount my previous definition), then there must be some factual inaccuracy, and the item in question can be at best a half-truth. With a half-truth, e.g. say Homer took a medically-prescribed drug. If I say "Homer took drugs", then it is a half-truth, and I'd think that it would be a "grey-lie" regardless of intent - doesn't matter if my intent is to make myself laugh or to make you hate Homer, it is nonetheless factually inaccurate, because it doesn't tell the whole story, which makes it a lie. Right!?

I hope I didn't contradict myself in this long comment (shades of Kerry, eh?).